Heart-centered leadership is all about creating a business with your purpose and values at the helm, without losing sight of the big picture vision you’re striving to achieve. In today’s episode, Kyle and Tom sit down with Amy Hall, Founder of Goldilocks Goods, to chat about her approach to creating her company—heart first. The three discuss how heart-centered leadership impacts every area of her business and the need to set boundaries as founders, even when we don’t want to.

Learn more about our guest:

Amy Hall, Founder & CEO @ Goldilocks Goods

Transcript

Tom: Welcome to Commerce Chefs, a quirky and thought-provoking show for a future-focused commerce leaders. We're going to pit the world's most brilliant, inspiring and driven DTC visionaries, the Commerce Chefs with riveting questions to uncover their secret ingredients at the intersection of passion, performance and leadership in practice. 

Kyle: For the past decade, we've led teams of designers, strategists and digital wizards at one of the leading eComm agencies in the country to help brave brands become enduring classics. 

Tom: And we're here to indefinitely borrow the strategies and pro tips that will make us all better leaders and make the brands we lead better, too. 

Kyle: Now that we're officially finished our first season, we've decided to spice things up a little bit over the summer for your listening enjoyment. 

Tom: So every two weeks we're releasing some of our favorite interviews from season one, but in long form so we can share even more delicious insights with you. 

Kyle: The secret good stuff that you didn't get to hear. So listen in. Grab a marg-ear-ita. 

Tom: No, no, that's awful. Awful sounding and probably tasting, too. 

Kyle: OK, OK. Grab a daiq-ear-i, enjoy some easy, breezy listening by the poolside with your favorite podcast hosts and let us know what you think in the reviews section. 

Kyle: On this glorious day, we've decided to release our interview with Amy Hall, founder of Goldilocks Goods, from our fifth episode Founders Keepers Part 1. 

Tom: Amy recently won Visa's Women in Business Grant and was a top ten finalist for Telus's, Innovative New Startup Award. Her sustainable products can be found across the country in Indigo stores. She's been featured in Chatelaine Magazine and has been prominently showcased by TV personality Jillian Harris. 

Kyle: This one was really special. Amy was our very first employee at PB&J, our Ecomm agency. She's done all the hard work to get where she is today and we're so proud of her. But we like to dream that maybe we'll have a footnote in her memoir one day.

Tom: We chat all about heart centered leadership, what that really means and the need, especially as founders, to set boundaries within our work. Let's dig in. 

Amy: So my name is Amy Hall and I'm the founder of Goldilocks Wraps here in Victoria, B.C.

Tom: Nice. And it isn't like a like a wrap like, 

Amy: I forget that I often need to clarify this, especially when people can't see what it is that we're discussing, but we make reuseable beeswax wraps. So it's an eco-friendly alternative to plastic wrap in the kitchen, but also lots of other uses as well. We've seen people get pretty creative with them, but that's the core of what we do. We've started to expand into some new products, but the beeswax wraps are really our foundation. 

Tom: And does anybody wear them as beanies? 

Amy: I've never seen anyone wear them as beanies. I have seen people use them as bike covers to keep them from getting their feet wet when it's been raining outside. That's one of the more creative ones for sure. 

Tom: OK, so we're talking about founder led companies today. That's why we wanted to chat with you. So first question on our mind, and it's not leading at all, but what are the ways that you feel that founder led brands have a unique edge in the world today? 

Amy: It's sort of when you're the fan, and I can mostly only speak from my own experience, obviously, but when you're the one that's running the company and you're the one that started the company as well, it really does become like your baby. You know, you really want to nurture it. You want to grow it. You really want to see your full vision down the line. So I think there's a lot more kind of like emotional or personal connection. Some people might see that as a positive thing. Some people might see it as a negative thing. I think personally, I think that that's a positive thing. I think the business is also moving towards a more heart centered form of leadership and how you interact with your customers. Not to say that if there's not a founder led companies out there that are capable of doing that, I think there's just such a more connected way of interacting with whether it's your staff or your customers when it is the founder that's kind of like leading the way from that place. 

Tom: But maybe circle around that a little bit more. I mean, you even mentioned maybe it's a good thing. Maybe it's a bad thing. What's great about that? What does it feel like to work on and nurture your baby? 

Amy: It's a lot of work. First of all, I don't think that people aren't always aware of how much work it's going to be. I've had conversations with people who are interested in maybe like founding their own company, but aren't quite there yet. And they think, you know, I'm going to start it. And then in five years, I'm going to be completely hands off and I'm going to walk away. I think that's sort of the air quotes dream sometimes for a lot of people. But the reality is, is I don't know if you're ever able to walk away from something like that, that you founded yourself. And if you're continually growing and you really care about your mission and what it is that you're doing. So I would say that it can be in terms of what it feels like, can be quite draining again, because when you're very emotionally invested in something, it can take a toll on you, sometimes. There's a lot of highs, there's a lot of lows. And not being able to separate, sometimes you're like personal or home life from work at five o'clock. At the end of the day, you could just go home and you could be at home. And then that was like the end of your thinking about your job for the day. When you're a founder, you're I don't know if your brain is ever really off. You know, it's going could be something as simple as like me being out at a grocery store. And then you see something and you're like, oh, maybe we should do something like this for a display. Or maybe I really like that print and I'll take a photo or really taking to heart those conversations when you get comments on ads and things like that, that maybe if it was more of like an employee mindset, you would just kind of like deal with it and move on and then you don't think about it again. I have a bit of a habit to overthink things from time to time. So I'd say that's sort of more maybe some of the not necessarily negative side. But I would just say it's a reality that I think more and more people are talking about. But I don't think in the past was maybe something that people would talk about as openly in terms of the struggles that they go through or those kind of like ups and downs from a more emotional perspective. But on the on the plus side, it's also just like where I think so much joy comes from and within the company, within the staff, within like the interactions that we get with the community and our customers and everything as well. And I think that they feel that there is just this innate sense of that coming across when you are really passionate and really believe in what it is that you're doing. And for us, it's to help reduce single use plastics. It's a pretty big topic to try and tackle, which can also be really disheartening at times, but also really enlightening to so many people and kind of like feeling like we're sort of leading this little online army to kind of like help do better and be more aware. 

Kyle: I was just thinking about this. This is like a really selfish question because I spent a whole night dreaming about some situations and strategy stuff. I woke up, I felt like I worked through my dreams on the problems, which I'm I'm not sure I did, but it felt like that in the morning because I still thinking about them. I sense maybe that's like a similar experience that you have this kind of what you're saying, maybe not the dreaming bit, but it's always in your mind. Is there ways that you worked through some of that, like letting go or disconnecting? 

Amy: I totally understand what you're talking about, were you dream about whatever it is that you're we issue it is or things that are happening at work. And you wake up in the morning feeling like you spent the last, like eight hours in the office and then you have to get up and go into work and you're like a little bit extra tired that day. I'd say my hobbies lately, quite specifically to since covid started obviously working from home a lot more. It's harder, I think, for everybody to have that kind of disconnect or that level of separation. So I've kind of had to tweak, I think, a lot of the things that I was doing in the past. So in the past, I was doing a lot of yoga and I found that to be quite helpful. But what I found helpful was going and engaging within that activity in the studio because you hear like the breath of everybody and just like that kind of atmosphere, whereas trying to do yoga at home is incredibly difficult for me anyways. I know a lot of people do it. I just will be in downward facing dog and then you see something on the counter and you're like, wow, I really need to clean that. Like, it's really hard to get into that mental state. So for me, I've kind of taken up a few hobbies. So one of them is free diving. I really got into that over the summer. I took a course for anybody who doesn't know what free diving is. It's essentially kind of like scuba diving, but you're using your own air. So you're going down. You're coming back up. But it's a very, like, meditative style experience because you actually can't focus on anything else other than what you're doing, because if you stop paying attention to your depth or if you stop paying attention to how long you've been under the water, you're like, oh, I might not get back to the surface in time. I'm making it sound way more daunting than it actually is. It's just this I've always loved the water and being in the water for me has always been kind of like this really good way to kind of detach and distress. So throwing in a lot of the breath work that you learn through doing these courses, because it's essentially teaching you to how to be able to hold your breath for longer. And just all of the science that goes into that, I also find really fascinating. So kind of having a hobby that I'm continuing to like learn at, because it's something that's very new and continue to expand upon. That's been something where it's really great, where I can kind of focus my learning or focus my energy, focus my physical time and just getting out in nature as well, like getting out of the house with some really beautiful spots here with even within an hour. And it's one of those things where often we go early in the morning and the day before, I'm quite regularly thinking to myself, what am I I don't know if I want to go tomorrow morning, it's cold. So, like, I'd rather just stay home. And then every time after we do a dive, I'm like, wow, I'm so glad that I got out and that I did this today. And you see the cool sometimes you and see amazing things. Sometimes, you know, you don't bump into too much. But regardless, it's always just like a great experience and a really good way to disconnect and kind of like, yeah, get myself out of my head. My past yoga instructor used to always say, you know, get out of your head and into your body. And I think for me, those kinds of activities are really a great way to force myself to do that. 

Tom: I always say, get out of my dreams and into my car, but maybe that's just a song. 

Kyle: Yup, that's it. 

Tom: So kind of on the crushing darkness of being alone under the water with no air, which sounds thrilling, drawing it back to your role. Do you ever because because you've sort of mentioned that that that that feeling in that context is refreshing. It's renewing. It's calming and relaxing. Do you ever feel, though, alone in your role within the company that you have this seat of solitude sometimes? And why or why not? Is it is it something that you feel? 

Amy: So, I have been very lucky in the sense that I have a business partner and we're very close. And we were actually friends before we started working together. Ironically, he's also my dive buddy. So when you go free diving together, you don't ever go by yourself. You always have somebody whose safety for you. So him and I go out together. And so if I'm at the surface, he would be the one that's below the water and I follow him along in that way. If anything goes wrong, there's somebody there. Same thing for when you come to the surface and then you stop for a second, you switch to your breathing and then swap out, which is funny that this is the question that you've asked, because I feel like that's also a very good analogy for the way that we function together in the business as well. We met very early on in the business phase. It was right after I had moved to Victoria. We'd become such good friends and and the way that we work together. He's described it quite frequently as a bit of a yin and yang relationship. So all of the things that I am terrible at and also hate doing, he is really wonderful and loves and vice versa. So there's this really great symbiotic relationship. And I think because we had formed like a really close friendship connection to we've been able to support each other from that perspective as well throughout this journey. Like there's been times where I've been having a meltdown because, you know, like many business owners in the first few years of businesses, you don't always get paid and thinking, like, do I need to have another job or going through whatever that kind of like inner turmoil is and always being knowing that I can reach out to him and we can have that conversation. And he's really good at bringing me back to center. And I hope that I'm able to do the same thing for him when we just have those conversations as well. So I think I'm in a fairly unique position because I know not everybody has that dynamic of a partner in their business partner. And it's not always great like, you know, people. I mean, I know you and Kyle have obviously been I think you kind of have like a similar relation in that sense, in that you guys are also really great friends. But I do think that that's like more rare and also very unique and can actually backfire for a lot of people. So I, I just feel very lucky in that sense. I mean, there's still times that I think, you know, as humans, we all feel lonely kind of regardless. And you kind of get in your own head about, oh, these are only my problems, which is why I think it's always great to kind of talk about them. And there is a really great community as well of entrepreneurs in Victoria that are all kind of like in their thirties. And there's they're all just so supportive as well. It's not a competitive environment. So I feel like a lot of the friends that I have out here have gone through a lot of those things. So just knowing sometimes. Yeah, that you're not the only one that's been dealing with this problem and in the past free covid, you know, we would go I'd say, hey, let's go for coffee. I just need to vent about this or I'm curious to hear about how you deal with your newsletters or whatever the topic is. Now it's more of like let's have cocktails on Zoom. But yeah. So that's just a sort of sum it up is that I understand why I think a lot of other people, when I speak to them, do feel very kind of lonely on this journey. And I'm quite thankful that I've surrounded myself with the community as well as a partner that allows me to not feel like that, which is great. 

Tom: So you sort of mentioned that you have that relationship and kind of how how you're feeling really does or can impact of what's going on. You have that support that found your community around you, which is great. So. Look outside of that group, though, any of your non-founder, CEO, contemporaries, what are some of the differences or responsibilities that you feel that maybe some of your contemporaries don't understand? Like what actions do you have that really shape the outcome of the company because of the responsibility that you feel that that maybe other non-founder CEOs might not? 

Amy: So this is funny. I actually can't think of anybody that I know currently. That's running a business that wasn't also the founder, that's just like I think goes to show like how deep that community is here. So in some ways I feel like all I can do off the top of my head is sort of make some assumptions about what that experience is like. Animals can't see the forest for the trees. I think in that kind of a of a scenario where I'm like, wow, what would that be like? If the does that make any sense? 

Tom: It makes a lot of sense. I also find it fascinating. 

Kyle: Here's another way to frame it. If you saw Goldilocks tomorrow and another company was like Amy. Now that you're done with that, you need to come lead this company. Come, CEO this company, going into that role, how would you see yourself now that you didn't found that company, what would you change? 

Amy: I think the biggest thing that would probably change in terms of my mindset more than anything is I feel like there's a lot of ways in which I would show up the same, because if I'm going to do something, obviously I want to do it well. And, you know, any place that I've also worked for in the past felt very passionate about and really wanted to kind of like show up in that way of like I'm invested in this and sort of having more of that owner's mindset, even though you're you're still technically an employee. But I would say that the biggest shift now after having actually run my own company would probably just be having more boundaries in terms of what your job description actually is and the things that you're willing to take on and the things that you're willing to say no to and what you're willing to delegate. I think there's sort of a sense of obligation and this is sort of comes from myself, not necessarily a sense of obligation that comes from any body else putting that on me, is that you kind of feel like you need to take care of everything because you've gone through the whole process. So as you grow a business in the beginning, you are literally the only person, at least in my case, where product based business, I was the only one making everything. I was the one going all the markets like you're wearing all the hats. And as you grow, you don't have to wear as many hats. But sometimes the parts that you liked and you're like not quite ready to let go. And you're like, maybe I'll just go hang the hat on the wall for a while or whatever, you know? And it's like, really, you just need to pass that hat along to somebody else. But it can be hard to do that or it can be hard to say no because you feel like, well, I'm the owner, I should work the extra hours, not somebody else, or I should just take care of this. So I think that that would be the biggest difference maybe in terms of their being perhaps more boundaries in your work role. Hopefully.  

Tom: I love that word, like obviously we've got some thoughts and experience on it, but I think that's the first time for me that's been articulated that way or that clearly and self reflection moment in a lot of ways in my life, I don't have a lot of boundaries, but for sure at work, that's a good one. That's a that's a good challenge. 

Amy: I mean, when you first start out, depending on what size your business is, you might not have that as an option. So that's also, I think, the root of where a lot of that stems from is in some ways it's a bit of a privilege as you see more and more growth within your company that you're able to start delegating those things. And those, for me, are often my biggest aha moments within like, oh look, not like we made it moments, but kind of, you know. I remember one of them being like when we first had a customer who purchased from us online, and it was actually a name that I didn't recognize and nobody that was working with us at the time, it wasn't, you know, wasn't my mom. It wasn't like a friend from back home. It wasn't like somebody else's aunt within the company. It was like, wow, we've reached our first, like, outsider. So to me, that was like a big aha moment. And then more and more lately, it's been as we've been able to hire more people and it's awesome. But it's also very scary. You know, that was also another aha moment where I'm like, wow, I feel like we've really made it. I've finally got like a full time position. And this is something that is very directly related to the role that I've taken on in the last sort of like two years. So it's exciting, but it's also scary. And again, trying to put those boundaries in place where I finally got to a point where I said, no, I can't do all of this anymore by myself. 

Kyle: So like a really good reflection on that, if I was to go somewhere else, if Amy was go somewhere else, I'd put more boundaries. If we know is founders, like, that's the right thing to do. That's the thing that, like, people would pay us the big bucks to do is to actually get out of the way to delegate more, to find good people. And we know that. But then we come back to our own companies. We're like, "but that's not for me". Like what gets in the way? 

Amy: I'd say for me personally, it's probably a combination. I say for most people as well, probably a combination of some kind of control as well as maybe just a little bit, you know, like you want to send your baby out into the world. That's very scary and potentially a little bit of guilt as well. Like, I know that that's something that I internally struggle with a lot. I think it's that sort of like if you're a bit of an A, not even A type personality, but a bit of an overachiever. I've been called a perfectionist in the past. Those kinds of things so often have that feeling like you're not doing enough or you could always be doing more. I think especially as a founder, your to do list is just never done. Like, that's one thing that I've just had to accept. It's incredibly frustrating where you're like it would be so nice to just work on a one project in a day, finish that project and like, go home and then do that again the next day. That never really happens. It's just never ending to do list. Yeah, I think for me there's a little bit of guilt where I'm like, I want to do more, I want to do as much as I can and then recognizing that that's like my own, that's my own problem. That's nobody else's problem. No one else is telling me that I need to be doing more. It's like a societal thing. You know, it's this weird kind of existential like society with a capital S, you know, and you're like, where does this come from? Why do I feel it's that like the busyness? I remember you guys were talking about that on one of your other podcasts. It's like. That's not beneficial. You know what I mean? That doesn't help anybody. So I'd say that's like the underlying cause. But I think the like the main overarching and I think this would apply for a lot of people as well as that not wanting to relinquish that control. I've been able to do it, but I've had to go through sort of unconscious processes, I think, to be able to get to a stage where I'm where I feel comfortable doing that. Starts with recognizing that it needs to happen and then kind of coming up with a plan and then like sitting with it and then kind of just finally putting some of those actions in place and finding the right people. I think sometimes when you find the right person, then all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm not scared of making this leap anymore. I, I, I don't know. Maybe I don't know you that well yet, but I trust you and I trust your skills. It's funny because I don't like relinquishing control and giving up certain things or it's like sometimes a little bit difficult. But once I do I'm like it's all yours. I don't like to micromanage. I feel like we often within our company to each of our managers, this like it's a very much a like we'll throw problems at you and we expect you to kind of like take it and roll with it and figure it out. Like, I'm not going to micromanage how you decide to do that. So, yeah, once I find somebody or we find staff, whether it's production staff or managers or like social media, it's very much like, okay, this is your baby now. And I expect you to treat this the same way that I do. And I'm here to help you and I'm here to guide you and I'm here to answer questions. But, you know, at the end of the day, this is now like your responsibility. And I'm kind of able to like it's like once I've made that decision, it's like I do a total 180 in some way. It's like, OK, we got here, this is yours. 

Kyle: That's good. What you said is so, so key. Right. It's helping people kind of take take that and make it their their baby and give that guidance. And if you just keep making it your baby, then no one else can be the baby daddy. 

Tom: The analogy works though. It it really is true, rightly or wrongly. And if I've learned anything from my mother, it is that there's a great amount of, I think, pride and relief when, like, your kid goes off to school out on their own, you know, they they set out on a path and make a life for themselves. And there are things that can be accomplished that would have never been, you know, when when they're kind of in its infancy stage. But the job's never done. You're never truly and I think, like, this is a real moment. Yeah. You might have that moment of I got somebody to take this role over, but let's be honest. Like we're never truly comfortable. Never truly feeling a hundred percent secure or not worried or your jobs never really done. So if your job's never done and your list never finished and you're never really comfortable, but that's maybe actually the strength in it all. So how do you take what others might see as a weakness like that? How do you take that and turn it into a strength, a legacy for for the brand? 

Amy: Yeah, I think that sort of what you're saying is that getting to that place where you're comfortable being uncomfortable is like a big part of running a business because things are always evolving, things are always changing. And like you said, some of those things might, on the surface level sound really negative or like a weakness. But I think that that is so much at the core. I think of like an evolving business and something that's going to be creative and innovative and something that is going to create a more lasting legacy and being able to move forward and adapt and solve problems and not just within the business, but for people, you know, we're a product based business. So our goal is to essentially help solve some kind of problem in people's lives. But is plastic free? That's like sort of the caveat of what we do. And I know Bret and I have had these conversations as well where, you know, oftentimes in other places of business or you hear this from other people and in different environments, they'll go in, they'll ask their boss or somebody, you know, why why are we doing this that way? And the response is often, well, that's the way we've always done it. And like, oh, that just always makes my heart cringe. And to me and I think interbred as well, that is often in our opinions, like the sign that that business is not going to last, like if you were ever responding within a business. With that kind of an answer, it's sort of just like, wow, you are not able to adapt, you're not able to kind of like redirect what it is that your company is doing. I feel like you're maybe not staying on top of, like, what's actually going on in the world, these critical topics, things that are changing and evolving, whether it's like from retail shops to e-commerce or all of these kind of different dynamics. Whereas when you are in that place where you are a little more comfortable being uncomfortable. It just seems like those transitions all of a sudden are so a little bit easier. Like transitions are always difficult. But I think that it just you're more on your toes. You're a little bit more engaged. If somebody within a company is saying, well, that's the way we've already done it to me, you've kind of disengaged from whatever it is that like passion or mission or whatever it is that you're doing or you're disengaged from your customers. So, I think that that's been really big for us. We're always trying to kind of like move forward and innovate and expand in. We've failed a lot in the in doing so. There's no kind of like risk that doesn't come with it, like the chance of failure. But I think that the way that we've always kind of looked at things is in a very much like almost like a theater mindset in that the show must go on, you know, like that's something that we talk about quite often. So whether it's like a minor problem or something as major is like having to shut down for two weeks during covid. It was never a panicky conversation that we had between the two of us. It was always, OK, so this happened. This is out of our control. How do we feel about it and what are we going to do about it and what are the pros and the cons? And it was again, that show must go on. Like, we're not just going to. If you just stay in a state of panic, that doesn't help anybody, so you can still panic, you can still have meltdowns, but at the end of the day, you need to figure out how what is the problem? How could we move forward? I would say that from small things to big things, that's kind of the approach that we try to take. So I'd say that that's one of the biggest benefits of what we were talking about earlier, potentially being a negative, 

Kyle: So in the tough times when you're kind of like needing to have this rapid resilience and be OK to fail, and then in the good times when it's like you need to push yourself, what's the founder factor in that? What I mean by that is like the first thing comes to mind is like when you've got these big failures and a founder like company, I think the perception is whether the founder they can fail as big as they want they're not going to go anywhere. Whereas if you were a non founder CEO, it's like, well, the board is going to kind of like, you know, too many failures. You're out. Do you think there's a founder factor that plays into both the bad times and the good times? 

Amy: For me, there was always this sense of this is going to be OK, we're going to work through this in terms of like the the more negative times. And the first thing I thought of was we're not going to go anywhere but that to me. And I had maybe not even recognized it until you kind of elaborated on it is definitely a founders' thought process or that founder factor, because if you were a CEO in that situation, you might be thinking, well, if I don't find a way to fix this, I'm going to lose my job, whereas I never had that thought process. So it was easier for us to ship. And I'm talking about covid specifically when we shut down, just because that seems to be obviously. But going through those kind of two weeks when we were shutting down, that's just like where my mind went to and what I was thinking about when you were talking about that. And that was that my thought process was, well, you know, like we're going to get through this. We're not going to go anywhere and was able to kind of pivot. And we ended up thinking a lot less about long term goals and and sales. And we were like, how can we help our customers at this point in time? And maybe if you were a CEO and you were somebody who who wasn't a founder, like you said, you have that accountability to the board. And at the end of the day, depending on the company, that might be their main focus, might be the the bottom line. And those numbers, which ultimately just is a whole different kind of mentality to go into a situation like that creates a lot more fear. Right. And I think that there would probably be a lot more fear in a situation like that, because, like you said, I'm always going to be the founder. I'm not going to go anywhere unless I choose to. So there is, I think, a lot more freedom in that sense to kind of take a step back from things like the bottom line or, you know, having to report to a board or those types of things. And you can really just say put a pause on sales. That doesn't matter right now. We're going to focus on building our community and reaching out to people and like, how are what are the things we can do to help in as much as we can in this kind of like online world that we're living in and being able to reach out to people and feel that connection and be kind of like a beacon of hope was sort of what we were hoping to be in those times was, you know. Let's have a really positive messaging. How can we engage with our everybody scared right now? This was the beginning of the pandemic and no one knows what's going to happen. And no one could have predicted what had happened. And what can we do to bring a sense of, like positivity and ease in all of this, like kind of negative and uncertainty? And I've seen other companies do the same thing that aren't necessarily founder led. So obviously they've created a really awesome environment to also be able to do that. So I don't think it's not impossible to do in a non-founder led company. I think that it is just much easier mentality to slip into even subconsciously. Like that wasn't a conscious I mean, it just that was the way that I'm able to operate because I have that freedom. I don't have a board. I don't have all of these kinds of things that really the accountability at the end of the day comes to myself. So what feels right in my heart, you know, I have to answer to myself at the end of the day, is a very different kind of role. 

Tom: Yeah. And that that safety and security is very powerful. So I would suspect that there are founders out there that maybe don't always feel that way. I also suspect there are founders out there that having that mentality. But as you said, you know, you use yours for for bringing hope and light and like future. There are probably some that that don't maybe have that idea. And so that security actually becomes an anchor where this leader can't get past themselves, the brand can't get past what they're enclosing in the security of, well, I'm not going anywhere, so this is the way it is. So what would be your advice to founders? Maybe they're not in that spot. Maybe they are. Maybe they maybe they have a tendency to to go that way. But how do we use this this safety, security and power of we're not going anywhere. But how do we make sure that it's always pointed at hope, at future, at doing a greater good and not at holding back the very thing where the very people that are part of this vision we're trying to grow? 

Amy: Yeah, I absolutely agree. It's safety and security can become a bit of a comfort zone, right, for some people is kind of what you're saying, I think. And how do you get people to reach outside of that? Because we all love comfort and safety and security. So the kind of what what's the reward of stepping outside of that comfort zone or that like safety and security? Right. I think that that's there has to be a goal. You know, whether it's for some people, it might be personal growth. For other people, it might be, you know, the greater good and wanting to create a better world or leave a better world. Maybe it's for their children. I mean, we obviously work in the environmental and sustainable living world. So that's a big common theme. Why would I step outside of my comfort zone or go out of my way to do these things that are kind of like maybe a pain or whatever? And often it will come down to, you know, looking inside of yourself. I think that that's the first step. And then the second part of that is you are looking to a future, I think you kind of get these blinders on. I think if you're in that comfort zone of safety and security and not wanting to, you're a leader and you're like at that point, I would say you're probably just trying to preserve yourself if that's the mentality that you have. And it's probably very much like a fear based mentality of not wanting to go outside of that comfort zone. But hopefully, you know, if you really think about it, it would provide a sense that sense of security should open up some doors for freedom. And so to think of it that way, as opposed to, oh, my gosh, this is something that I don't want to lose, like, well, this isn't something that people can necessarily take away from you. This is just a choice that you're making. And and hopefully to think outside of yourself and you think at a certain point you need to not just be in that self-preservation mode and you should be thinking about what are the things that I can do, whether it's for your team, especially if you're a leader and you're a CEO. I would hope that that sort of maybe your first stopping point is think outside of yourself to your team and what can you do to help them? How is a potential risk or failure on your part going to benefit them in the long run or whatever that kind of is? It's you need to kind of look to the end. I think of like why I always think, is it Simon Sinek, the look to your why, you know, as always, like, repeated quite regularly. But I think that that would be a good way to kind of get outside of that box that maybe a leader or CEO has put themselves in is what is what is your vision? What is your legacy that you want to leave? What is your purpose, those kinds of things? 

Tom: Well, just like your name, there is a lot of gold in what you just said. Yeah. Thank you for that. I think it's a beautiful encouragement and also a challenge to the founders of of companies new experience. I think we all need that kick in the butt. So thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing your your journey and your wisdom and your humor and for putting up with our with our puns. 

Amy: Thanks, Tom. I love the puns. 

Kyle: There's always room for a pun, as they say. 

Tom: We always have a pun in the oven. 

Kyle: Pun in the oven. There it is. 

Amy: There it is. 

Tom: Well, that's a life thought for today, Amy. Thank you. 

Amy: Thanks for having me on, guys. 

Kyle: As founders, it's easy to get caught up in our own seat of solitude. That's why it's so important to surround ourselves with people who are going through similar journeys as we are. For Amy, she managed to create strong relationships with her co-founder and local community of entrepreneurs to help her stay levelheaded. 

Tom: Progressing in your business can also equate to setting more boundaries. Amy mentioned that although we may love wearing certain hats as entrepreneurs, we need to know when it's time to hang them up. 

Kyle: And don't feel guilty about hanging up a particular hat as founders are to do list will never be finished. So celebrating the small wins is key to staying motivated and we should really be looking for jobs to actually fire ourselves from. 

Tom: You're fired. Amy, thank you so much for sharing your recipes for success with us. 

Kyle: And that's it for today's episode, we hope you found it helpful and gained some new ideas to make the brands you lead even better. 

Tom: If you're looking for even more insights and recipes for success, make sure to follow us on social @CommerceChefs. 

Kyle: And remember to join the Commerce Chefs community launching this fall. 

Tom: Save your spot and join now at CommerceChefs.com/Community. 

Kyle: In the meantime, we're currently deciding which spicy interview to share with you next. Make sure to tune back in on September 2nd to find out who it is. 

Tom: And lastly, if you liked this episode and you want to support us, make sure to hit the subscribe button and leave us a five star rating and review. You know, you want to. Until next time. This has been a dash of Tom.

Kyle: And a pinch of Kyle and a splash of Amy. 

Tom: We'll be cooking with you in two weeks.